Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/06/1997 03:05 PM House HES
| Audio | Topic |
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL
SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 6, 1997
3:05 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Con Bunde, Chairman
Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman
Representative Al Vezey
Representative Brian Porter
Representative J. Allen Kemplen
Representative Tom Brice
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Fred Dyson
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 146
"An Act relating to competency testing requirements for secondary
students; and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
*HOUSE BILL NO. 147
"An Act relating to charter schools and to the establishment of
state boarding schools."
- HEARD AND HELD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 146
SHORT TITLE: PUPIL COMPETENCY TESTING
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
02/18/97 381 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/18/97 381 (H) HES
02/27/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
02/27/97 (H) MINUTE(HES)
03/06/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 147
SHORT TITLE: STATE BOARDING SCHOOLS/CHARTER SCHOOLS
SPONSOR(S): HEALTH, EDUCATION & SOCIAL SERVICES
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
02/18/97 381 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/18/97 382 (H) HES
03/06/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
CARL ROSE, Executive Director
Association of Alaska School Boards
316 West Eleventh Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-1083
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146 and HB 147
JOHN CYR, President
National Education Association-Alaska, (NEA-Alaska)
114 Second Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-3090
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146 and HB 147
ED EARNHART
1043 West 74th Avenue
Anchorage, Alaska 99518
Telephone: (907) 349-1160
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 146 and HB 147
BART MWAREY
General Delivery
Takotna, Alaska 99675
Telephone: (907) 298-2215
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 147
STEPHEN McPHETRES, Executive Director
Alaska Council of School Administrators
326 Fourth Street, Number 404
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 586-9702
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 147
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-15, SIDE A
Number 0000
CHAIRMAN CON BUNDE called the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:05 p.m. Members
present at the call to order were Representatives Bunde, Green,
Vezey, Porter, Kemplen and Brice. Representative Dyson was absent.
This meeting was teleconferenced to Anchorage, Ketchikan, Seward,
Valdez, Delta Junction and an offnet site in Takotna.
HB 146 - PUPIL COMPETENCY TESTING
Number 0053
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the first item on the agenda was HB 146,
"An Act relating to competency testing requirements for secondary
students; and providing for an effective date." He said this was
the second hearing on this bill.
Number 0084
CARL ROSE, Executive Director, Association of Alaska School Boards,
said he appreciated the emphasis behind HB 146 to examine the issue
of student competency. He wished to share some concerns about the
bill with the committee. "Our ability to address student
competency is at the root of what, everything that we do. And if
student learning is in fact what we're trying to accomplish, in our
focus in the state, student competency is what we want to spend our
time and attention. I think I would like to propose to you that
you exam student competency, not from an exit exam in the twelfth
year, but in a comprehensive fashion."
MR. ROSE said, "As many of you know we have voluntary standards
that are before us in many of the areas that you state here. My
concern would be that if we had a process that aligned our school
districts, through their curriculum, to address these standards in
such a fashion that we address the professional development of our
professional staff to prepare them to deliver that curriculum and
then invest it in, in an assessment that accurately measured the
progress at grades 4, 8 and 11. I think, now, we have the making
of a comprehensive program that will examine the progress that is
being made, where remediation should be addressed and how we go
about addressing that in more of a, in a, systemic fashion."
MR. ROSE said, "My concern would be that to simply a put a, a
competency test as a final step that does create some problems. I
don't suggest that it's, it's totally bad idea because I think
student competency is a concern. But I think the way we go about
addressing the issue could, could be enhanced by a more progressive
approach system wide. I think we have the wherewithal to do that
with a, with standards that have been adopted. I've, I've examined
them, I've worked with them closely, I think they're appropriate.
The question would, would have to be what be the appropriate
measure that suggests; what is it we want our kids to know, how do
we know that they are obtaining those skills, what is the
curriculum in place to address that and the whole issue of
professional development. We have a system now, in terms of
certification, that allows people to be certified to teach in
school based on their elementary and secondary certification. What
we are going to be asking for in these standards, and with this
assessment, will be specific areas of knowledge and what have we
done to prepare this current work force to address the needs that
we may be requiring of them? I think it is an important issue; how
do we prepare our people to focus on what we think is important,
how do we assist them through the curriculum, curriculum
development process, and what would be the measure, an accurate
measure, based on Alaska's needs."
Number 0304
MR. ROSE said, "So, in closing, I would just say if we took a look
at the issue of student competency, not necessarily from an exit
exam, but from an entire systemic point of view and take a look at
what we expect our kids to know at the fourth, eighth and eleventh
grade. How we could be assured that they were receiving the
instruction in an appropriate fashion and how we measure it, I
think, is critical. So, with that I would say I appreciate your
efforts to take a look at student competency. I think there are
ways that we can go about doing it and these ways will cost money.
Didn't want to leave you without bringing up the money issue,
right? But, but my concern would be that if we really want to
accomplish something and it may have some costs involved, do we
ignore what we really want to accomplish because of the dollars or
do we look at that as an investment and move forward and try and
accomplish that. I will try to answer any questions you might
have, Mr. Chairman."
Number 0356
REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN thought he heard Mr. Rose express concern
about whether the current teachers would be able to teach our
children what they need to know.
Number 0389
MR. ROSE said, "I think we have excellent teachers in our
classrooms right now. The question has to be, what is it that they
are going to be asked to teach. And if we describe that through
curriculum, what are we doing to prepare our people to best address
that curriculum through professional development. We have quality
people in our classrooms right now, but if you are asking them to
accomplish something, what are we doing to prepare them to do
that."
Number 0412
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if we, as an educational system, have
been pumping out students, then why don't we know what is going to
be expected of a student in grades 4, 8 or 11 in order to compete
nationally. It should have been something that was incumbent on
our system from its inception. If Alaska is pumping out in one
direction and the nation is going the other way, we should know
this. We should know what students need to accomplish to be
competitive in science, math, English and other core subjects.
Number 0467
MR. ROSE said, "As I take a look at the system right now, we have
varying degrees of assessment, in terms of how we're progressing.
What we're suggesting with the standards that are, have been
adopted, is that we agree that there are certain things that our
kids should, should know and there should be a measure as to, at
what points they should know it. We don't currently have an
assessment that really identifies that. The other thing would be
this whole issue curriculum development, we currently do that now
based on a local level, the whole idea behind the standards were to
give people the voluntary initiative to step out and make some
progress and some of our school districts have. But, I will tell
you that these are being done on limited funds in certain pockets
across the state."
MR. ROSE said, "As you well know, many have told you, many of our
school districts suffer under the weight of a 30 percent loss in
buying power. I know you've heard that before, but the reality has
come to the fore. Many of our school districts and I will tell
you, many of them will not be able to exist another five years,
compared to the last ten that they've come through. These, these
are some critical issues that we have to face, they're coming to us
in a number of ways, but I'll stay on your assessment."
MR. ROSE said, "If we had an accurate assessment and we had an
investment in curriculum and professional development, you'd have
the makings of the accountability that you're looking for and that
is what I want to propose to you today. If it is accountability
that you want, based on student performance, an accurate
measurement, an investment in curriculum development and
professional development, at least some assistance because of the
weight we're under in terms of static levels of funding would be a
tremendous aid and I think it would bear results."
Number 0573
REPRESENTATIVE BRIAN PORTER referred to testimony by the Department
of Education (DOE), school administrators and representatives of
teachers saying that if we are going to test student competency to
see if basic knowledge has been imparted by the time they have
reached the end of the instructional period, we have to teach the
teachers how to do this and we've got to develop these standards.
He said it begs the questions of what have they been doing for the
last fifty years. He questioned what has been taught if we have
got to instruct teachers on how to teach the basic fundamentals of
the four areas that this bill addresses. There was no doubt in his
mind that systematically something has to be put into place, so
that we don't inadvertently take advantage of kids. Kids who it
appears haven't had the benefit of somebody sitting down and saying
what is it we want them to learn, what is it we have to teach to
get them to learn this and then test them on that. He said this
appeared to be very basic training principles. If we haven't been
doing that, he agreed we would have to set up some time to
implement it. If we have to instruct teachers on this, he
questioned where the teachers or administrators would have gone to
school.
Number 0677
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said these are the frustrations he is hearing
from people in his district. It would appear, in order to test
what we had hoped the school systems were providing, we need to
start from scratch.
Number 0719
MR. ROSE said, "I am sure Representative Porter we're not talking
about your kids or my kids. Because our kids got some of that good
education, but some of my kids have kids who went to school with
them who didn't get that for a host of reasons. Society has
changed the way we think, changed the way we live and it should
change the way we instruct our kids. Our needs have changed and I
think that if we are going to take a look at what, what kids need
to be successful in the future, I think it begs the question do we
have a set of standards that, that are, are appropriate today and
not necessarily over the last fifty years. I will tell you that
our school system has turned some of the brightest minds in the
world, we have done a fine job. But the demographics, and the
studies will show, that there are areas that we need to do some
work in. There are areas of the population that are being
unaddressed in our current system, we need to make some of these
changes."
MR. ROSE said, "So, I won't debate with you that, that you have the
right to expect performance with all the money that has been paid
in by the state in terms of an education. I think you have that
right. The question has to be; how do we go about doing it to meet
the needs of all the kids and that is where I'm coming from. I'd,
I'd like to take a look at how we address the largest portion of
our need for all the kids."
Number 0791
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to a letter from a constituent taking him
to task about this issue. The letter was someone who had graduated
from the Anchorage school district. Eight, ten or eleven of her
family members graduated from an Alaskan school district and have
all become successful contributing members of society. There are
students who are doing a wonderful job. He related his experiences
of speaking to a high school in his district, the government
classes. Invariably there are two or three kids who are asleep at
their desk. He questioned if the $7,500 for their motel was worth
it. He asked the students in the class whether in five years, they
would be willing to pay an income tax so that someone can have a
$7,500 desk to sleep behind. He shared Mr. Rose's concern about a
blanket indictment regarding everyone who attends Alaska schools,
there are some very good students. He questioned what we were
going to do about those who choose not to accept their
responsibility. If students can not achieve the level that is
deemed appropriate, then they will have to live with those
consequences. Those who are unable to meet those standards will
receive help to be able to meet them.
Number 0884
REPRESENTATIVE J. ALLEN KEMPLEN asked why grades 4, 8 and 11 were
chosen.
Number 0895
MR. ROSE said, "I think it has been determined that those are the
areas that would be appropriate for the measure to see if people
are meeting the standard. The whole ideas here is to give an
expectation to parents as to what their child will be expected to
know at those appropriate grade levels of 4, 8 and 11. That should
be the area that we, that we access."
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked who determined this.
MR. ROSE said, "By the standards. There was a whole discussion
behind the state standards that were put together that there should
be areas that we should be able to determine. In the early
discussion the ideas is what do, what level of a expectation should
a parent have of their youngster. And a parent should be able to
know that, that the grades levels of 4, 8 and 11 certain
competencies, competencies should be attained and so that was, the,
the the premise of my comment. It could be however you want to
design it. The whole idea is that as you progress through the
process, if there is an expectation we need some idea that we are
meeting that expectation."
Number 0950
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked if there were tests that students
currently take at those grade levels, for instance the California
Achievement Test (CAT) test which is administered to fourth
graders.
Number 0961
MR. ROSE said, "There are some tests that are given right now
throughout the school system, again the point is are they
correlated to a set of standards. Well, there is, there is a lot
of conjecture to that, there is a lot of discussion. The whole
idea is that do we clearly understand what we expect from kids,
have we designed a curriculum to instruct them in that area, have
we prepared ourselves to deliver that level of instruction and how
do we measure it. Those are the issues, you can put in whatever
form that you want, but if you have an expectation, how do we
assure ourselves that we have reached, that we reach the
expectation and monitor the system to assure that people are
progressing?"
Number 0991
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN said if we were to test competency levels
early on in the educational progress, then it would give us an
adequate time for remedial instruction. Allowing the system, at
the fourth grade level, to find out where a student's weaknesses
are and address those weaknesses and make sure they are still on
track in grades 8 and 11, rather than testing them when they leave.
Number 1047
MR. ROSE said, "yes, Mr. Chairman, that's the design, to find any
deficiencies early."
Number 1050
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN clarified that kids are able to learn more
information earlier on in their development.
Number 1061
MR. ROSE said, "Most of the research that I've read, is that the
earlier you can start a child on the process of learning, the more
success you will enjoy. That's, that is the reason behind the
early childhood and focusing on the, on the lower grades. I would
say that the reason that the fourth grade was picked is because
that's about the period of time when you are going to be able to
identify the people have gained the skills necessary to progress on
successfully through the system. If they're deficient, in any way,
the focus should be at that level rather than to eighth, eleventh
grade or even upon exit."
Number 1098
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN understood that if a child is not competent
in reading at an early level, it places a huge obstacle in their
ability to learn in many other areas throughout the rest of their
education. If we are going to measure competency in the basics, it
should be at an early age so that a good foundation can be laid for
their ability to learn in the later years of school.
Number 1136
MR. ROSE said, "yes, I concur. The issue of remediation, the
sooner, the better. And in this case, absolutely if there is a
deficiency at the lower ages, lower grades, that's where you should
put your emphasis to try and remediate there, if they are going to
take full advantage of what is offered throughout the process."
Number 1152
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this is a serious indictment of some school
districts choosing social promotions and not requiring students to
achieve a certain level of academic proficiency before they simply
push the student to upper grades. Leaving in local control, we
have to allow school districts to make mistakes if they choose to
do so.
Number 1172
REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY said he assumed that having a statewide
standard is a good idea. He asked why the state Board of Education
has not adopted a state standard.
Number 1196
MR. ROSE said, "We, we developed standards in a public process down
through the years. It started under the Hickel Administration. It
was great hesitancy to address standards for fear that they'd be
mandated one day. The only way we could get the discussion to take
place statewide was that this would voluntary. Now I understand
the discomfort that causes a lot of people, voluntary standards.
However, a lot of people have put a lot of time and they see the
value in standards. I, I, I am concerned that the mandatory nature
of these standards could cause some people to say, we knew it all
along. Now I would say, from a personal point of view, whether
they are mandated or not, I've, I've reviewed the standards, I've
worked closely with them, I think they're good. The question is
how we get there. Some would say through accredidations, some
would say through an assessment, the end result is going to have to
be an assessment somehow to see how we're doing. And so the
suggestion I bring to you today is that if we, it's really student
competency that we're after, let's a look at some progressive way
that we can go about doing this in a systematic way that ensures
that we accomplish that. I think early identification is critical.
So, I don't, I guess I didn't answer your question. Why haven't
they mandated, or why don't they have the standards?"
Number 1254
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY repeated his question, assuming it is a good
idea that we have a state standard, why is the legislature having
to write a statute to tell the school board how to do a good job.
He did not like to do that, he thought the school board would be
far more knowledgeable in the area of requirements for our
educational institutions than the legislature.
Number 1275
MR. ROSE said, "I think the whole idea behind standards will, will,
will hinge on an assessment; how do we measure and then if you want
a positive response in terms of your measurement, what kind of an
investment do we make in terms of the curriculum and professional
development. I think we covered that earlier, but it really hinges
on an assessment. Do we have an assessment that will accurately
measure, that gives us an indication that this is how we move
forward? In the absence of that, school districts may try, but
there is no real universal measure, universal measure."
Number 1306
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked how we could get from a time when we
went into school, were told what was expected of us, how well we
did was reflected in our report card, to where we are now. He was
not casting aspersions on our school system. He cited an example
of the California school system in the 1960s when they passed kids
out of high school with a sixth grade reading comprehension. He
questioned how we could get ourselves in a position where educators
are asking the legislature to do something. He said it is up to
the education experts to determine and implement standards.
Number 1411
MR. ROSE said, "It's not my responsibility, it's our responsibility
in terms of what we expect from our kids and how they get their
education. I will, I'll sing this song everywhere I go. The point
is, is that we're looking for people to blame, they're out there,
they're everywhere. But the point is, is that parents have an
interest, communities have an interest, the state has an interest,
kids have an interest and what we are trying to do, I believe, what
we're trying to do is open the gates to the American dream to as
many people as we can squeeze through there. And if if you suggest
that the standards have gone down, possibly so. But how many
people are we moving through the gate? I think there's a
correlation there."
MR. ROSE said, "I would say to you that it is in all of our
interests to ensure that we raise the standard. That we take a
look at how we go about doing that, but I will tell you the school
board at the local level can't do it by themselves nor can the
teachers, nor can the principals, nor the superintendent, the state
board, none of us can do it independently. It will take all of us
working together on behalf of kids. And that is what I, I would
ask you to to take, what is legislature's role, what role do you
play in trying to put together a system as I have just described to
you. What is my role, I want to assume that role. I think we all
do. So, I guess it comes down to this, what is our role in trying
to improve the quality of education for all the kids. I am ready
to assume mine and I know you're ready to assume yours. With that,
that would be my response to you. How we've lowered our standard?
I don't know that we have. I think we're moving a lot of people
through that gate."
Number 1485
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if we want to move people through the
gate by widening the gate, lowering the standards. He said we have
standards, we know what they need to accomplish in order to
succeed. Maybe the problem has been that we haven't demanded that
this is the standard that we are going to have. He said from his
personal experience, kids seem to rise to the level of expectation
that is demanded of them or lower their output if a lower
expectation is demanded. He asked if we have lowered the standard
to the point that kids don't care.
Number 1536
MR. ROSE said, "My response to that would be, perhaps, but I tend
to think that we, we are moving a lot of people through here, a lot
of them are very, very competent. The question is do we need to
set a standard? I would say yes, and that is what I propose, I
propose we set a standard."
Number 1549
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said we are all in this together, we are not just
looking towards you as a representative of the school district and
saying that it is your problem, not our problem. Because we are in
this together, the legislature is acting as a messenger of their
constituency to identify a problem.
Number 1568
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY asked if there is a law or a statute that
mandates that the university system admits any high school graduate
in the state.
Number 1580
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said it was just a university policy that they have
open admissions.
Number 1586
REPRESENTATIVE VEZEY said he is not interested in assigning blame,
it just doesn't matter. He expressed curiosity as to why all of a
sudden the legislature and the professionals are saying that it is
a good idea that we have a standard in place. He questioned what
the goal was in the past.
Number 1614
MR. ROSE said, "It didn't just come up, standards have been around
for some time. It is very hard to a, to get the public to embrace
standards because I wouldn't say standards in general. We have
come through a period of time when outcome based education was an
issue and that pretty much set us back as a state in terms of what
we could do, what the political will of the local constituencies
were. So, so we've had some problems, but we've been talking about
standards for some time. I think now that the issue has been on
the table before the public for some time, it's, it's readily
acceptable. These are some things that we have expectations of and
we'd like to try and accomplish. The issue comes down to how do we
implement this into the system."
MR. ROSE said, "Dollars are involved, assurances are involved. The
issue of accountability is, is surely here, performance. So,
within all of that, I think we come up with some solutions, but
Representative Vezey we didn't just come up with standards, they've
been with us for some time, but it is very difficult to get a
system that has been designed largely around A,B,C,D and F to
change to any other way of thinking whether it be portfolios, or
A,B,C or nobody fails or whatever measure you want to use. It's
been a lot of rhetoric out here. The fact of the matter is, is
that we know what kids need, can we get it to them, can we assure
ourselves that they are getting it and that's, that's where the
discussion is right now. I think that your bill is an important
one because it addresses competency, how we go about that I would
suggest we need to take a closer look so we're appropriate in our
measure."
Number 1679
REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE asked if we weren't suggesting outcome
based education here. Isn't this saying that the state will
mandate outcome based education.
Number 1700
MR. ROSE said, "The term outcome based education has many
connotations. I think what we're talking about here is we are
going to provide an education. What is the outcome that we expect?
Now in that sense, here is the standard, what would be the outcome
of this education? So, I would agree with you, yes, but the
connotation that this is some government effort to standardize
everyone in the way they think, I think is unfair. Basically we
know what kids need to be successful into the future and we're
struggling right now with how we're going to provide that forum and
still do it in the public forum. So, yes, I would agree with you.
It is an outcome that we're looking for, but not with the negative
connotation of outcome based education."
Number 1739
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE commented that, basically, everyone is saying
that we want standards established. This bill says one test and
what Mr. Rose is proposing is three or four tests throughout the
years and added that he is aware that it is more than just three
tests. It is a question of establishing a system that can track
students and their progress through the grade system. He asked if
there was any specific language that would allow us to get from a
singular exit exam to the type of system that people are
recommending.
Number 1788
MR. ROSE said, "I do have a design with the components that I, I
spoke of earlier and I'm looking at, at the issue of accountability
and investment in terms of what it is that we're trying to
accomplish. As I mentioned earlier, it's not just the three exams,
it's the standards that we align ourselves to, it's the curriculum
that needs to be developed and it's the professional development to
ensure that our people are well prepared to deliver this, now,
it's, it's a cycle. It's a cycle. First of all it's the
curriculum, professional development and assessment and the cycle
starts again. I think it's critical that we, that we move in this
area. We're doing some preliminary work right now. You understand
that there are a number of proposals before you. The Department of
Education is very concerned about the whole idea of accreditation.
There's merit to that. That it will end up in some kind of an
assessment and so, I would propose to you that, yes, there are some
solutions. I would like to be able to bring them to you at some
point in time. I'm trying to get some numbers put together. There
are a lot of people who are very concerned about this effort. If
we're going to move into an area of testing, let's do it in the
most appropriate way that we can to accomplish what it is that
we're set out to do, which is standards."
Number 1841
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN referred to a nationally syndicated comic
strip which described the unwillingness to fail children because of
possible psychological damage that might occur. He said this
appears to be a national problem, it is our problem. He asked if
things had been done in other places that appeared to work to
alleviate this problem.
Number 1930
MR. ROSE said, "There are other models that have been used. I, I
would say because of the demographics of Alaska, there are some
things that we could, that we could design into our program that
would be Alaskan appropriate. I think it's really important. I
wouldn't suggest that we recreate the wheel from scratch. We
should take some of the things that work, but we should also
examine if they're appropriate for us. And I would imagine that
that would be part of the process. I do appreciate your comment.
Referring to a comic strip, they're, they're abound in the nation.
I think the issue is squarely before us as a nation; what is it
that we expect our kids need to have into the future so we can
maintain our world competitiveness. It's an issue. And closer to
home, what do we have to have, in terms of an assurance, that our
kids will be economically viable within the world that they're
going to moving into. So, these are issues that need to be
addressed somehow. We simply need, as government, have to have
some baseline that we gage to see that the dollars we're spending
are going to that cause. That people are being prepared for the
future."
Number 1971
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked, if that is the case, could he come to
the legislature with two or three proven track records that will
work toward what it sounds like we are all hoping to achieve.
Number 1983
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said there are 21 other states that have exit exams,
there are examples.
Number 1989
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked, if there are two or three avenues to
get where we want to be, would Mr. Rose come back to the
legislature and present the information. He could say that instead
of spending the current amount per capita we're going to have to
spend five times that much or two times that much. He asked for
specific numbers regarding cost.
Number 2009
MR. ROSE said, "I understand the issue is one of accountability,
it's one of performance and I would like to be able to come back
with you with some suggestions."
Number 2016
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to written testimony located in the
packets, an NEA-Alaska position statement and written testimony
from the Department of Education (DOE) addressing concerns that
they have regarding HB 146.
Number 2031
JOHN CYR, President, National Education Association-Alaska, (NEA-
Alaska), wanted to address some concerns that he had. The first
concern was testing. Every classroom in Alaska has teachers that
evaluate and test. There are pre-tests, post-tests, testing is
absolutely covered. Children are assessed every day in classrooms
throughout Alaska. Children are retained. To retain a child in
Alaska is a cumbersome process that is dictated by the parents.
Parents make the final decision about whether or not the child
should be retained, but agreed that the decision should be there.
Number 2098
MR. CYR said the second issue is teacher inservice and whether or
not teachers are prepared. He said teachers in Alaska are
prepared. If his statistics were right, Alaska has the highest
rate of masters degrees and advanced degrees as compared to any
other state in the union. Inservice is still provided, it happens
every year, in every district in Alaska and rightfully so. In a
lot of districts, teaching staff are taking over the inservice
mechanism to make sure that inservices provide what they need and
what they feel is appropriate. He referred to police officers and
said they go to training on a regular basis and he would say that
is appropriate.
Number 2149
MR. CYR said there are two things which are important to remember
in a state mandated assessment. The first thing is that we have
voluntary standards which are not statewide, we do not teach the
same things from district to district. We teach different things
in different ways at different levels. This state has made a
decision that local control is more important than mandated
statewide standards for education. This subject needs to be
debated at a separate time. He agreed with Mr. Rose that there are
a couple of ways to do this. We can give an exit test that will in
effect mandate some kind of statewide standards or we can upfront
say that at these particular checkpoints we believe this is what
every child in Alaska should know. We need to be cognizant of
those options.
MR. CYR said the second major point is the disparity of resources.
Some schools are new and contain libraries, equipment, et cetera
and other schools do not have these resources. If we are going to
look at some kind of blanket statewide system that mandates
standards, we need to address the disparity question.
MR. CYR said, if we look at what happens in schools around the
nation and schools within Alaska, there are some things that
weren't there when a lot of us were in school or at least they
weren't very prevalent. Things such as drugs, alcohol, violence
and non-parenting parents. Schools are the mirror of our society.
This is why our jails have more people in them then they did in
1950. It is not because of the failure of schools, so much as the
failure of society to identify those kinds of things that change
that behavior. All of those things come into play. If we are
really going to test kids at the other end, then he agreed that we
need to back through the grades and look at those kinds of things.
MR. CYR said it doesn't do any good to fail a senior. It gives the
public some confidence that those people who did pass will do well,
but those people who do pass will do well whether or not they take
the test or not. Alaska has the highest per capita percentage of
National Merit Scholars. Millions of dollars are given to seniors
in the form of scholarships.
Number 2287
MR. CYR referred to, "Money Magazine", which said that public
education is the best buy in America today. There are a number of
articles out there today. A book titled, The Manufactured Crisis,
talks about how well public education is doing. The Bracey Report
basically runs through the good things that are occurring in
education. To present public education as a place where kids can't
spell "school" misrepresents the truth. We are seeing some
amazingly good things happening in schools against some horrible
conditions.
TAPE 97-15, SIDE B
Number 0000
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said he heard the testimony to be that maybe
we don't need the best of everything in order to have high
standards of expectation.
Number 0060
MR. CYR said you could put kids in a Quonset hut, give them the
yellow pages and some of those kids will turn out to be
professionals. He asked if this did justice to the bulk of
children. There are kids who are going to succeed and will succeed
because of us or in spite of their parents, pressures of society or
in spite of whatever happens. He agreed that there has to be a
balance of economics in this state, the money and resources should
be used in a way that does the most for most of the students.
Number 0131
MR. CYR said if we have been throwing money at education, he has
not seen it. He referred to a report by the NorthWest Regional
Labs, which NEA didn't commission, which talks about the effects of
money on education. He said he could provide a copy for the
committee.
Number 0163
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if there was a divergence that occurred
between kindergarten and twelfth grade which could determine
whether some kids needed to learn how to conjugate verbs, while
other kids did not need to know this.
Number 0237
MR. CYR said to some extent we do that, especially in the urban
areas. We have a wealth of programs ranging from advanced
placement college prep, vocational technical programs to some basic
programs. He did not feel that we did enough of this. We need to
be careful, because he did remember the days of tracking kids. To
some extent you got placed into the kind of program based on where
your parents fit in economically. It didn't matter what kind of
education you received because you weren't going to be much anyway.
We have to make every opportunity available for all kids. Kids and
their parents, at the high school level, make some pretty
intelligent decisions. He would like to think that we can provide
some quality vocational education programs for everyone, but added
that those programs are expensive.
Number 0331
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he wanted to open up discussion among the
committee members. An adjustment needed to be made on HB 146 as
far as the effective date was concerned. He said students are
tested on a regular basis and said he took some offense to the
notion that this would be a "thump test". Currently the bill calls
for an effective date of July 1, 1997. It did not seem
appropriate, to him, for next year's senior to suddenly find out
that the rules have changed. He shared his confidence that the
system will respond and the teachers, the parents and the students
can respond. Parents have been left out in this discussion. There
was a problem that was created some years ago, the "Lake Wobegone"
syndrome where all the children are above average. A teacher had
a great deal of temerity to suggest, to a parent, that their
student wasn't performing at an acceptable level and should be
retained. There were also instances where a parent wanted to
retain their child and the school district said the student should
be passed on to the next grade.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, with local control ideas in mind, he is not as
concerned as to how the school gets a student to a level of
competency that we have a right to expect in high school graduates.
Number 0510
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked at what year are we going to begin
testing.
Number 0537
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he would want to back up the testing to begin
administering the exam in the year 2000, impacting this year's
freshman class. He said a five year window would not be too
generous, setting an effective date of 2002.
Number 0561
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said the year 2002 would be a good time to set
the effective date. He said, despite the fact that there are 21
states that have exit examinations, the DOE is going to have to
study what, where and how this test is going to be administered
statewide.
Number 0613
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said, to be fair to the students, they need a high
school period of time, four years. The DOE has a year to choose a
vehicle, then the teachers know what it is that these students will
be expected to know. The schools can begin to teach these students
so that in four years they will have a clear grasp of what the
expectations are.
Number 0652
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE expressed concern that, if we establish this
exit examination, DOE would make the test for the lowest common
denominator. He asked if this issue should be dealt with as a
legislature or as a committee.
Number 0682
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he had some confidence that the DOE is going to
want to do what is best for students. To create a test that is
virtually unfailable, is not going to do the students any service
at all. If this type of test was created, then the legislature
would have to weigh in on the issue. There are people who spend
their entire career creating tests. Writing a good test is a very
challenging task and repeated that there are other states which
give exit tests. We might have to adjust the test for Alaska. He
expected that DOE would come back to the committee with a report as
to what the test is and where we are in the process.
Number 0761
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said, recognizing the problem we have in the
legislature of only being able to predict what we can control for
the next two years, this bill might possibly be phased in as
opposed to being set out for the year, 2002. As everyone
mentioned, the first challenge is to establish what the standard
is. What it is that we want a high school senior in this state to
be able to do in the core subjects. He asked if we were going to
have different levels of these standards or if we were going to
have one size fits all. He referred to police standards where it
was decided that one size did not fit all. It didn't fit because
there were different expectations and levels of requirement for one
type of law enforcement as opposed to another, usually because of
the size of the community.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said, if this test was going to be valuable
at all, those kinds of decisions have to be made before you start
down the road. We have to decide how we are going to develop a
curriculum to test for this and what kinds of inservices are going
to have to provided for teachers in order to get them to put things
into their lesson plans.
Number 0900
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he wasn't aware that there was a large
problem within the state about local control. At least in the
district that he represents, he did not think this would be a
significant problem if all we are trying to do is say there are
four basic core areas of knowledge that kids should be proficient
in by the time they get through the system. If a school district
wanted to emphasize something that is fine, but in these four areas
students need to meet or exceed the standards we set. He said this
is how he sees the balance between mandatory and voluntary
standards.
Number 0971
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he would be happier having some
presentation, this time next year, on the developed standards. It
will answer the question of whether there is one or more standards,
what they are going to be and what they anticipate the challenges
will be in getting them implemented before we give an exit
examination in the year 2000.
Number 1032
ED EARNHART testified next via teleconference from Anchorage. He
urged the committee to go easy on legislative mandates and do what
Mr. Rose talked about regarding curriculum, standards and
implementation. If these standards are working well, the problem
with the high school diploma will be addressed. Students will not
arrive to high school without preparation. To implement a test for
high school graduation around the state would be extremely unfair
and difficult. To have a standard curriculum and to eventually
require that schools around the state utilize that curriculum
around core subjects will allow you to have an exam. The exam
should have already be taken care of, for most students, because
they will be tested in those areas anyway.
MR. EARNHART said support needs to be given to the DOE and they
need to be more assertive regarding the standards of the local
schools. This idea that local school districts can voluntary
choose the standards will not work. One of the main reasons why it
won't work is because we have people who move around a lot in
Alaska. When these people are hurt, when they change from one
school to another, a standard curriculum idea is great with an
appropriate test to go with it. He said HB 146 should not go
through at this time.
Number 1178
MR. EARNHART said he has 14 years of experience working in
education in five different states. He said Alaska does as good a
job as some other states and better than some, but we still need to
move on with improvements.
Number 1219
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN said basic knowledge is going to have to be
established statewide no matter at what minimum level the test is
set. He expressed concern that some students do not do well on
tests. He referred to the bell shaped curve. Using the curve, one
of the Blue Angels pilots would be a failure. There has to be a
way that educational experts can determine what is going to be the
best method or what the next best method would be to accomplish the
things needed and present them to the legislature.
Number 1333
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE referred to concerns about the mandatory
nature of the exam. He suggested moving away from requiring the
test, in order to receive a diploma, to requiring a test for an
endorsement upon that diploma and in the high school transcripts.
Students, who are intending to advance their education, can have
recognition in their official transcripts while those who are not
necessarily interested in going on to advance their academic career
would not necessarily be subjected to the same test. Those
students who pass their classes might not necessarily need to be
tested. Moving towards an endorsement program would allow those
students to show that they have a competency level in the core
subjects.
Number 1415
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he was in general agreement, but added that we
need a set of standards so that students who graduate high school
in Fairbanks, Anchorage or Fort Yukon are capable of the same type
of competencies. He did not want to become flexible around this
issue. For those people whose only aspiration is ditch digging,
they don't need a high school diploma. People need a high school
diploma and a basic competency to fully participate in our society.
Number 1486
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE said that people have different levels of
competencies in different areas. If we don't go the endorsement
diploma route, then he would propose an amendment to delete
mathematics. He cited his difficulties in the area of mathematics.
Number 1528
CHAIRMAN BUNDE expected the DOE to create a basic test. If the
committee wanted to entertain the notion of an endorsed diploma, an
honors degree, he was perfectly willing to entertain such an idea.
The basic competencies are not aimed at people who are destined for
college, it is just the basic literacy level that we expect of all
members of our society to have. So, they can fill out the job
application for the ditch digger, or they can fill out the job
application for BP (Alaska) Inc., or they can fill out an
application for college.
Number 1558
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he agreed with eventually having some
type of specialty endorsement whether it is for mathematics,
science, a foreign language or something else. He would also
support the notion that we should have a certain level of
expectation, but perhaps we should let some areas of the state have
a longer time to reach that expectation.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER referred to a luncheon on mining where a
speaker talked about the impact of resource development in their
particular area of the state. The speaker said they were
successful in getting a large business to come into their region
and discuss plans for shareholder hire and local hire through the
cooperation of this business, the Red Dog Mine. A year or so into
the operation, they found that folks available for work did not
have the basic education to meet the basic needs of the entry level
positions for mining.
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said this area of the state has since raised
their standards, provided the motivation for their kids and
families to meet those standards because here was an opportunity
that needed this level of education. The area has reportedly gone
from a fourth or fifth grade level of competency in their high
school graduates up to ninth or tenth grade level, because there
was some carrot out there that made it worth it. Some school
districts have not seen that carrot and have seen no real incentive
for reaching those standards. He suggested an assessment to find
out where we are at be done first, followed by a forum that must be
met, within a period of time, to get people up to the standard.
Number 1688
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the incentive for a school district, to help
their students get to the level where they would be functionally
literate and meet the demands of the jobs available to them, would
be severely impacted by parents. Especially if the school district
would do this assessment and find out that 20 percent, 30 percent,
40 to 50 percent of their high school graduates would not meet this
level of expectation. He suggested that there is a carrot and a
stick.
Number 1733
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER agreed and added that, at some point in time,
they are going to have to meet this level of expectation, but let's
make it doable.
Number 1772
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the discussion is on an effective date of 2002,
but perhaps modifying that date based on what Representative Porter
suggested, a multiple effective date. In July 1, 1998, we would
see the testing vehicle that the DOE develops. The sophomore class
of that year would then know what the expectations were that they
would have to meet in order to receive their high school diploma.
He asked the committee if that should be included in a committee
substitute or if this could be done as a conceptual amendment.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN suggested a committee substitute.
Number 1816
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said he would like to hear, from the folks
who would be implementing this test, the impression of what timing
would be required. Recognizing that we would want to push people
to do it as soon as possible, it would be important to find out
what timing would be needed to integrate the curriculum and lesson
plans, to make sure the test was being taught in schools.
Number 1851
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN concurred. There are students, on course in
high school, who can't balance a checkbook. If we give them the
expectations in 1998, there might be too much ground to cover to
pass that test. We would probably have to fall back several years
in order to start moving this student forward. We need to find out
how far back the experts feel they need to go, before they start
implementing the test.
Number 1878
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he has been lobbied by people saying they want
to do a pre-kindergarten screening. He understood the concern, but
at some point you have to take off the bandage and you can do it
quickly or slowly. He said the education community is going to
want to go pre-kindergarten.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this bill would be held until Tuesday, March
11, 1997. He would introduce a committee substitute with a
multiple effective date. One date would be relatively soon within
a year and a half requiring the DOE to have the test prepared.
Four years after that time will allow someone in the eighth grade
to prepare themselves to successfully pass the test if they want a
high school diploma.
HB 147 - STATE BOARDING SCHOOLS/CHARTER SCHOOLS
Number 2001
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the next item on the agenda was HB 147, "An Act
relating to charter schools and to the establishment of state
boarding schools." The impetus for this bill came from some folks
in Takotna who would like to have a boarding school. After
exploring this issue, he found that many successful people from the
rural areas attended Mt. Edgecumbe, a successful boarding school in
the state. Unfortunately it is, by statute, the only boarding
school allowed in the state of Alaska. He said HB 147 would allow
other school districts, within the state, to explore the option of
developing a boarding school program. This bill does not mandate
it and it doesn't finance it, but it does allow that option for
people who are interested in establishing boarding schools.
Number 2030
ED EARNHART testified next via teleconference from Anchorage. He
said we should not mess with that charter school thing until things
settle down a little bit on some of the other concerns about
charter schools. He questioned the special provision that causes
local school districts to pay for charter schools. He asked what
would be the matter with a new Mt. Edgecumbe in a location where
most people are.
Number 2056
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this is just what HB 147 allows.
MR. EARNHART said it would allow it, but it wouldn't develop it.
He asked if Mt. Edgecumbe was a charter school.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that Mt. Edgecumbe is a state operated
school. He said it was not his intent to come into a locality and
say that the district must now accept a new state operated school,
nor could the state afford to do that.
MR. EARNHART said the legislature is making it so the local
district would be kind of pressured to accept a new charter school
with all the new activities.
Number 2080
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said HB 147 allows boarding schools and boarding
schools that are also charter schools, if that is what the local
community would like.
Number 2088
MR. EARNHART asked if you had to allow that. He said he was not
that familiar with the current charter schools and the laws
regarding it. He felt we should wait before we did anything that
would alter the charter school legislation that currently exists as
we are not into it yet.
Number 2110
CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that he is not interested in changing the
charter school legislation as it exists. He agreed that we have
just gotten started in that area and that it should be given a time
to work. By law, Mt. Edgecumbe is the only boarding school allowed
in the state of Alaska and HB 147 simply allows the establishment
of boarding schools, whether they be a charter school or an
extension of regular schools in the school district. This bill
allows the establishment of boarding schools, if the local district
should choose to have one.
Number 2138
MR. EARNHART said this is still done under the state in a way, but
we are kicking it out to the local school districts to arrange it.
He commented that the state has done a beautiful job over the years
with Mt. Edgecumbe, but it might have done a little better job if
at least part of the students that went to Mt. Edgecumbe hadn't
been quite so far away from home. He didn't know why this had to
be a charter school because until you get into this charter school
business, you have people proposing every kind of thing to amend
the law. He asked if the state would give extra money to the
school district to pay for the boarding arrangements and asked what
that would do to the formula.
Number 2181
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said there is no fiscal note involved in HB 147.
Number 2188
MR. EARNHART asked if the legislature wanted local people to pay
and if they were under the assumption that charter schools are so
much cheaper that they'll be able to swing it.
Number 2190
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said all he was doing was proposing legislation to
allow local districts, whether they be a regular school or a
charter school, to form a boarding school if they choose to, but
they have to finance it.
MR. EARNHART suggested that private schools be formed.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said private schools don't need permission from the
state to open a boarding school.
TAPE 97-16, SIDE A
Number 0000
BART MWAREY testified next via teleconference from Takotna. He
referred to Section 1 (d), "the local school board shall supply
funds necessary to pay the expenses of housing nonresident
students..." He said the fact that this particular section doesn't
have any funding mechanism to it more or less negates the purpose
for which his group talked to the legislature about, the funding
problem of running a charter school as a boarding program. There
were seven charter schools allocated for the rural villages in
Alaska. Takotna Trading Center happens to represent about five or
six districts which, almost in itself, requires the school to board
the students who attend the school.
MR. MWAREY said the school has been in operation as an alternative
school for two years and one year as a charter school, the program
was started three years ago. Consistently the costs overrun the
allocated boarding portion of the program. They try to work with
the district, the community of Takotna, every fund available and
use fundraising methods to raise the money so that students who
come from outside have their boarding expenses taken care of by the
school. The boarding component costs seem to run an average of
about $50,000 a year.
MR. MWAREY said they hoped that the legislation or the statute that
governs Mt. Edgecumbe could be opened up to include other schools
who are interested in it. If the Takotna Charter School could come
under that and be eligible for the boarding stipend that students
at Mt. Edgecumbe receive it would help. As it exists in the
current legislation, only students who come in from villages
without a high school program would be eligible for that boarding
stipend.
Number 0291
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said it was not fiscally possible to do what he
requested. The state is having a difficult time just maintaining
funding for the existing foundation. For us to propose additional
funding for boarding students is not realistic. He is willing and
interested in allowing schools to have the option of setting up a
school, but the funding mechanism would have to fall back to the
local district.
Number 0343
MR. MWAREY responded that when the charter school legislation was
proposed there was no additional funding. Funding is achieved by
students who attend that school based on the funding formula for
that community. He reiterated that they have tried everything
possible to make sure that costs are met for educating the kids as
well as housing students who come in from outside.
MR. MWAREY mentioned in research and reading that he has done, the
failure of a charter school is not due to the fact that they are
bad programs, but due to the lack of funding. This is proven by
test scores and students who have successfully been sent to college
after graduation from their charter school. He referred to a
student who currently attends the University of Alaska-Fairbanks,
but had he remained in his district high school would have dropped
out. This student gained the skills needed and is able to take
regular college classes, not remedial classes. He asked if there
was any way that the boarding program could receive some stipend.
Number 0498
CHAIRMAN BUNDE commended the work that was being done and believed
that charter schools were providing an exceptional education
program, but it was not possible to fund the boarding component.
He asked that you take a look at HB 148, which revises the
foundation formula and turns it into a per pupil formula. Perhaps
HB 148 will be an asset toward the funding of charter schools.
Number 0552
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said it was his understanding that HB 147
doesn't set up any requirements, it just sets up the ability of the
school district to have a boarding school whether it is a charter
school or a regular school. He assumed that the local school
district would have the ability to set the geographic boundaries
for attendance of that school. He asked if they wanted to take
non-residents from outside of the school district, would they be
precluded from charging a tuition.
Number 0593
JOHN CYR, President, National Education Association-Alaska, (NEA-
Alaska), was next to testify. It seemed to him, at least on the
surface, that it would be illegal to charge a tuition for a public
school.
Number 0644
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER clarified that he is not talking about
charging a fee to replace the money they would receive from the
foundation formula of having that child in their district, but the
costs of paying room and board. He said if someone wanted to make
that decision, we wouldn't want to set up a barrier to it.
Number 0660
MR. CYR said, it seemed to him, that one of the underlying
principles of a public education is that it is open and available
to all members of the public, regardless of their financial
position. If you are accepted into Mt. Edgecumbe, choose to go,
then the state picks up whatever the cost is. His economic
ability, as a parent, doesn't preclude his child from going. If we
establish charter schools, in any community, then we have to be
assured that those schools are available to all members of the
community. If in fact there is a charter school in Anchorage and
I live there, then my child should be able to go. If there is a
charter school in Takotna that takes boarding students from
anywhere in the state, as a member of the public, my child should
be able to attend regardless of my economic condition. Otherwise
we have set up a class system which is the antithesis of public
schooling.
Number 0740
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to the fact that you have to be selected to
go to Mt. Edgecumbe. As he understood, students received a $100
stipend for travel expenses. Someone, somewhere picks up the rest
of that cost.
Number 0769
REPRESENTATIVE PORTER said, recognizing that there are only so many
seats available at Mt. Edgecumbe, there are some folks that would
like to go to a regional school that can't. A school district that
provides a regional hub high school, for its district, certainly is
making that available to everyone in its district. If someone from
another area likes the curriculum here, wasn't able to get into Mt.
Edgecumbe, they would be in a position to have a basic education in
their region, but they would have to opt to move there. He did not
see how that was setting up anything other than additional
motivation to get what you want, if that school district is
willing, has the ability to have seats available, but needs the
offset so as to not require residents of their school district to
pay for kids from outside.
Number 0834
MR. MWARNEY testified next via teleconference from Takotna. He
said Takotna Trading Center is one charter school for five or six
districts in the region. Those other districts could not have a
charter school in their district because only seven charter schools
were allocated in rural areas of the state. Those five other
districts are what makes their school a boarding program. When
students choose to attend the charter school, they have to travel
here and live someplace. The school is not under the same statute
that governs Mt. Edgecumbe and so the students are not eligible for
the boarding stipend.
Number 0904
CARL ROSE, Executive Director, Association of Alaska School Boards,
said, "As we take a look at the bill, I think we support House Bill
147. We have some concerns and I think some of them have been
addressed. We support charter schools, we think that the bill that
has passed needs some time for implementation. And I think that
everybody is in agreement that we're, they're afford us that time.
However, when we address charter schools in this piece of
legislation, without corresponding funds, what we do is, we pass
the burden onto the school district to make a determination whether
they approve a charter school and take a look at the boarding
requirement as an additional cost with no additional money. I
think, it may weigh heavily on the side of non-approval. So, it's
an additional burden I think for a school district to take a look
at the total cost if you're going to take a look at dormitory
services that aren't covered elsewhere. It's an additional weight
on that decision. I think it'll have a negative impact and I'd
like people to understand that if we want people to take advantage
of charter schools and we're going to allow for folks to cover the
cost and we're talking about mandating some things here without the
money, the additional burden is on the school district whether
they'll approve the program or not. And the weight of that
decision will, I think, exacerbate the whole charter school issue."
Number 0975
MR. ROSE said, "The charter school issue is to try to give some
latitude to, to school districts to do some things free from some
of the requirements. And if we're going to enhance that with a
piece of legislation, I think that's great, but if you create
another barrier that weighs in the consideration of whether you
approve or don't approve because you can't recover the cost, I have
some concerns about that and I think we should take a look at it."
Number 0997
MR. ROSE said, "The second issue on, on the, on boarding schools.
I don't think anybody can argue with the success of statewide
boarding, boarding school if you take a look at Mt. Edgecumbe as
the example. Any time you have a chance to address the issue of a,
a curriculum that is not only enhanced because of, of some of the
admittance requirements, but also the issue of 24 hour supervision.
Tremendous advantage if you're going to try to educate kids with
that kind of a framework. To extend that opportunity statewide, I,
I think is a good idea for people who want to take advantage of
that. And I think as is mentioned by Representative Porter, if a
school district, a small school district, wanted to consolidate its
high schools into one regional high school the ability to do that
would be good, I think."
Number 1038
MR. ROSE said, "On the other hand, we have some areas of concern
with the small rural high school. Will they be able to stay in
existence? I think, I think the issue will become one of, one of
value that someone will have to place on those programs.
Nonetheless with the advent of Molly Hootch, et cetera, we've
developed a system of education where we value the small high
school, small rural high school. Kids are allowed to go to school
in their hometown. Some of the, some of political concerns there,
I think, are a bit of a problem. Nonetheless, I think that what
you're doing with this bill is you're allowing it to happen, you're
providing some latitude and I think the school board association
would support that. However, we're taking a look at the issue of
charter, is it an additional burden in the weighing of a decision
in the issue of, of a state, state boarding schools. I think is
one that provides latitude with some assistance, I think it could
bear some fruit. However, to, to take a look at our economic state
right now, the ability to take advantage of some of latitude, I
think would be minimal, but nonetheless the ability will be there."
Number 1092
CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that not all charter schools would be
boarding schools.
Number 1106
STEPHEN McPHETRES, Executive Director, Alaska Council of School
Administrators, said, "We conceptually support this legislation,
but we also have some concerns and you've, you've clarified some of
them as you've talked to folks that are testifying previous to my
testimony. The concern, some of the concerns we have are actually
in this particular piece of legislation we see that there's two
issues and two clear issues. One is the addressing of a, of a
compromise or some type of amendment to the current charter school
legislation and the other one is creating a mechanism for, for the
creation of additional state boarding schools. So, I think if we
can take those two in, in, in the separate I think it would make a
much clearer picture for all of us in our discussions."
Number 1162
MR. McPHETRES said, "Having been one to have experienced the
creation of the regional boarding schools, the dissolving of the
regional boarding schools, the dissolving of Mt. Edgecumbe, the
creation of Mt. Edgecumbe. Having taught at Sheldon Jackson when
it was a high school boarding school, we do come with a little bit
of expertise in the areas of the value of good quality boarding
schools across the state. And certainly we see the, the benefit
that Mt. Edgecumbe has created for Alaskan's children since it's
been restarted in the eighties. And certainly there has been lots
of discussions in all the circles that we've been around for the
need for additional, possibly additional boarding schools in the
interior. So, from that concept, we feel supportive of the
legislation. The concern is, of course, is an unfunded mandate
that, and you've alluded to this in your comments to the fact that
we have X number of dollars and currently that, those X number of
dollars are being distributed to current programs and to add
something new to it is just mainly taking away from what already
exists. And we want to be sure that we are clear in our mind that
we're not creating another situation where we're going to even draw
down on the current revenues as school districts are getting for
their programs."
Number 1214
MR. McPHETRES said, "In the review of some of the charter
applications that I've listened to before the state Board of
Education, there has been a concern and I'll just throw this out on
the table as a concern that's being expressed since we are in a
five year trial period for charter schools and evaluating some of
the rocks that are in the road along the way. One is this whole
issue of the non-resident student and when, this particular piece
of legislation speaks to, of course, the housing, the room and the
board. But we're getting into an area where, in some applications,
they're looking at the districts going outside of their own
district and recruiting students come into their district's charter
school. The question is, is that ethical to do that? Is, are we
starting to open the doors to multiple recruiting from one district
to the next from all across the state? Are we creating a situation
that maybe we need to take a real hard look at that we're not, not
doing something that is going to be adverse to the whole
educational structure as we go down the road here. So, I just
throw this out as a word of caution."
MR. McPHETRES said, "Regarding your, your question of tuition,
Representative Porter if I may, we did have a tuition program in
the state of Alaska for a number of years and it, it a actually
served as, if a, if a school child was able to go from one school
district to another school district then that visiting school
district then would receive a tuition for that child coming from
the home district. And that was then a reimbursed by the state.
That practice went out about, I want to say, four or five years ago
to where now if there's a student that transferred from one
district to another it's the responsibility of the host district to
pay that tuition. There have been in the past school districts who
have paid the full tuition for their students to attend other
schools and I use as an example the Pribolof Islands. At one time
they did not have any ninth through twelfth program and they sent
all their kids to MatSu school district and paid their room and
board and tuition while the students went to, to that, to their
educational program. So, there has been a past practice to maybe
clarify some of your questions better."
Number 1337
MR. McPHETRES said, "So, in conclusion I would say that we are in
support of the charter school concept. We do see some exciting
ideas that are being floated out there as potential charter
schools. We are concerned about the extent to the, that they're
going to extend to and we would just like to throw a little air of
caution as we get into this whole issue of evaluating and changing
what currently exists. As far as the state boarding schools, as
long as we're looking at creating something new with new dollars
then we would support such a thing as that as well."
Number 1369
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this is the first time that HB 147 was heard
and as there is no more testimony on this bill, it will be heard
again on Tuesday, March 11, 1997.
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to conduct, CHAIRMAN BUNDE
adjourned the meeting of the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee at 5:00 p.m.
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